Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

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Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

Post by Flat on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:15 pm

I touched on this subject in another post (“I have a question”), but wanted to start a separate thread on the matter because it’s quite important.

First, let me mention that the Book of Enoch was never declared "non-Canonical" by the Church. This is crucial to realize. The Council of Nicea (325 A.D.), which first decided definitively on the Sacred Canon of Scripture, never declared Enoch’s book “non-Canonical”. Much less was the book ever condemned. It was simply put on the shelf. That’s all. We're not exactly sure of the reasons behind the Council’s decision. It’s possible the book’s mention of Angels mating with earthly women was a little uncomfortable for the Council Fathers (not long after the council, Julian the Apostate began using this Angel explanation to mock Christianity).    

Another possible explanation is that the decision was politically motivated. At the time, Constantine was forcing the pagan 365-day Julian Calendar on the Roman Empire – a calendar which conflicted with the 364-day Enochean Calendar found in the Book of Enoch. Ergo, the Father’s decision may have been a simple effort to placate the Emperor (and who could blame them, seeing as he had just recently stopped the centuries-long persecution of Christians throughout the realm). On the other hand, since the days of Enoch, no one had ever used the 364-day calendar anyway – as the ancient Patriarch complains of several times in his book. So who knows for sure why the Council Fathers decided to shelve the Book of Enoch? The point is simply that it was never declared non-Canonical, much less was it ever condemned. That’s the point. And so, with that in mind, let me explain where God referred to the Book of Enoch specifically as “Scripture”.

Recall the scene in chapter 22 of Matthew's Gospel wherein Christ is questioned by the Sadducees about the woman who marries seven men, all of whom die. You know the story. Anyway, Christ tells the Sadducees that they err because they know neither the “Scriptures”, nor the power of God (don’t we just love to hear God putting His enemies in their place). But the question is - exactly what “Scripture” is Christ referring to? Where in the entire Canon of Scripture is this particular subject addressed? Have a look for yourself. You won’t find it. The answer is that it’s found nowhere but in the Book of Enoch. His book is the ONLY place where this subject is addressed.

In chapter 15 of Enoch’s book, we find the ancient Patriarch standing before the throne of God asking for mercy on behalf of the 200 Fallen Angels who fornicated with earthly women. If you recall, God instructs him to remind the Angels that because men are mortal, and therefore subject to death, they are given wives so as to perpetuate the human race - whereas the Angels are immortal, and therefore in no need of marriage. As far as the Sadducees' question is concerned, the point is that those who die are forevermore "immortal", and therefore in no need of marriage. They have become (to use Christ's words) "like the Angels in Heaven".

And so, we see here that God Himself refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture". And we know it MUST be Enoch's book He refers to because it's the ONLY place in all of Holy Writ where this particular subject is addressed.

I would also mention one more quick point regarding the Book of Enoch:
As the Patriarch says, the book was written for those who would be present on earth near the end of the world. This is the reason why it has begun gaining popularity as of late – a prophetic outlook which further lends itself to the credibility of the book.

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Re: Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

Post by FlatEarthFanatic on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:36 pm

Could it not be that Our Lord is simply referring to the angels chaste nature which is inferred in other parts of scripture? Such as in their creation. Marriage was only created for man after all.

Do you have any references outside of scripture for the notion that Enoch is scripture?

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Re: Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

Post by Flat on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:06 pm

FlatEarthFanatic wrote:Could it not be that Our Lord is simply referring to the angels chaste nature which is inferred in other parts of scripture? Such as in their creation. Marriage was only created for man after all.

Do you have any references outside of scripture for the notion that Enoch is scripture?

First of all, for those who haven't read chapter 15 of Enoch's book, let me paste it below. It's not very long at all:  

15:1 But HE raised me up and said to me with HIS voice, “Enoch,” I then heard, “Do not fear, Enoch, righteous man, scribe of righteousness; come near to ME and hear MY voice.”
15:2 “And tell the Watchers of heaven (that is, the Fallen Angels) on whose behalf you have been sent to intercede: 'It is meet for you that you intercede on behalf of man, and not man on your behalf.”
15:3 “For what reason have you abandoned the high, holy, and eternal heaven; and slept with women and defiled yourselves with the daughters of the people; taking wives, acting like the children of the earth, and begetting giant sons?”
15:4 “Surely you used to be holy, spiritual, the living ones, [possessing] eternal life; but now you have defiled yourselves with women, and with the blood of the flesh begotten children, you have lusted with the blood of the people, like them producing blood and flesh, which die and perish.”
15:5 “On that account, I have given you wives in order that seeds might be sown upon them and children born by them, so that the deeds that are done upon the earth will not be withheld from you.”
15:6 “Indeed you, formerly you were spiritual, having eternal life; and immortal in all the generations of the world.”
15:7 “That is why formerly I did not make wives for you, for the dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven.'”
15:8 “But now the giants who are born from the union of the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth.”
15:9 “Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the holy ones they became the Watchers; their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits.”
15:10 “The dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth.”
15:11 “The spirits of the giants oppress each other; they will corrupt, fall, be excited, and fall upon the earth, and cause sorrow. They eat no food, nor become thirsty, nor find obstacles.”
15:12 “And these spirits shall rise up against the children of the people and against the women, because they have proceeded forth from them.”

And so you're right, Flat Earth Fanatic, marriage WAS created for man, not the Angels. Man was created mortal, and is therefore in need of marrying and procreating - but the Angels are created immortal, and therefore in no need of either marriage or procreation. This is precisely what God reprimands them for. Heavenly beings, such as Angels (and those who die) do not marry. To do so goes against the very nature of their creation. This explanation is the entire gist of the chapter.

Now, remember the Sadducees' question: "Who's wife will she be?" That's their question. After all 8 people die, who's wife will she be? Well, as it happens, Chapter 15 of Enoch's book answers the question perfectly. And the answer? No one's. They will all be immortal - as the Angels in Heaven. This is the answer to the Sadducees' question. That's why I say it is exactly the "Scripture" which Christ refers to. Nowhere else in all of Scripture is this question answered. Nowhere.
Ergo, your contention that perhaps Christ was referring to the chaste nature of the Angels betrays the clear evidence. Nor does it in any way answer the question: "Who's wife will she be?" That's the question. Who's wife will she be? A reference to the chaste nature of the Angels doesn't make any sense in light of the question. Unless I'm missing something.

In the end, there can be absolutely no question that chapter 15 of Enoch is precisely the "Scripture" Christ refers to in Matthew's Gospel. Not only does it answer the question perfectly, but it's the only place in all of Holy Writ where this matter is even addressed at all.

As to your second question: "Do you have any references outside of Scripture for the notion that Enoch is Scripture?"  
Your question is confusing. How could I? Prior to the Church's formal canonization of Scripture at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., no one was sure whether or not Enoch was inspired. Some early Jews and Christians thought perhaps it was, and others didn't think so - but in the end, prior to the Church's official declaration, no one could possibly declare with any authority that it was inspired. No one but the Pope could do such a thing. Ergo, since the Church is the only entity on earth with the authority to definitively declare a book canonical, how could anyone declare otherwise. And so I don't understand your question. Why you would ask this? Indeed, why would you even need to?
No less an authority than the Son of God referred to Enoch's book as "Scripture" - and He did so IN SCRIPTURE ITSELF! Honestly, what more evidence do we need? If this doesn't convince us, then what will?
I'll tell you what will... Prayer.

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Re: Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

Post by FlatEarthFanatic on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:54 pm

Second question first: References outside of scripture means any writings voicing this opinion or referring to it. For example, this could be the Fathers of the Church, or some saint. Any opinion at all by anyone really claiming that Enoch is actually part of scripture and that it was "shelved".

The first question; "like the angels in heaven" refers to how they are not married, but chaste. Philosohphically, and theologically that can be easily shown, but you rightly point out that Our Lord refers to scripture. So the question is how can use scripture to show the chastity of angels?

The enoch citation is very clear, I admit that. But with the common sense assumption that angels were not married, any reference to angels in heaven could be used to support it.

But there is a difficulty here, which is why I ask for authorities or any opinion prior to 2018 on this topic. The flat earth and the nephelim are supported by some or all of the fathers. If you can find some support for your opinion on this issue prior to the 21st century, please do put it up on this forum.

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Re: Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

Post by Flat on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm

FlatEarthFanatic wrote:Second question first: References outside of scripture means any writings voicing this opinion or referring to it. For example, this could be the Fathers of the Church, or some saint. Any opinion at all by anyone really claiming that Enoch is actually part of scripture and that it was "shelved".

The first question; "like the angels in heaven" refers to how they are not married, but chaste. Philosohphically, and theologically that can be easily shown, but you rightly point out that Our Lord refers to scripture. So the question is how can use scripture to show the chastity of angels?

The enoch citation is very clear, I admit that. But with the common sense assumption that angels were not married, any reference to angels in heaven could be used to support it.

But there is a difficulty here, which is why I ask for authorities or any opinion prior to 2018 on this topic. The flat earth and the nephelim are supported by some or all of the fathers. If you can find some support for your opinion on this issue prior to the 21st century, please do put it up on this forum.


As far as any saints or Church Fathers who regarded Enoch as "Scripture", the only one I know of who expressed this belief was Tertullian. Others such as St. Justin Martyr, St. Ireneaus, Origen, and St. Clement of Alexandria had a high regard for the book, and quoted freely from it - but never said they thought it was "Scripture". Nor, again, would they EVER have. Tertullian, who later fell into heresy, was the only person dumb enough to say such a thing. Like I said in my last post, no saint or Church Father (worth his weight) would claim Enoch was "Scripture" unless the Church declared it first. It would be equivalent to imagining that you or I, as individuals, have any authority in the matter.

The problem we're faced with in terms of acceptance of the Book of Enoch is two-fold: First of all, the reason for its rejection is more than likely its references to Angels mating with humans. Although this "Angelic" interpretation was unanimously accepted by the Hebrew scribes since the days of Moses, as well as the translators of the Septuagint, and the earliest Church Fathers, it was only after coming under attack by the pagans (led by the Roman Emperor, Julian the Apostate) that the Fathers and theologians shied away from it. Frankly, what they should have done was act like men and defended the clear Scriptural interpretation. Honestly, since when has the mating of godly men with pagan women ever produced giant, superhuman warriors? Israel mated with pagans for thousands of years. And not one giant. Not one. And yet, St. Augustine couldn't see the fallacy in this explanation? this isn't rocket science. But the mating of ANGELS with humans resulting in giant, superhuman warriors? That makes sense. It's also EXACTLY what the Old Testament says. Frankly, the Church Fathers and theologians who cowered in the face of pagan opposition did a grave disservice to the truth - and in the process have inadvertently blinded mankind to the existence (and influence) of the Nephilim of today. Bad decision. It only makes me that much more proud of the Church hierarchy who stood up like faithful Catholics and defended the Word of God in the Galileo affair. God bless them! Anyway, the point is that the fact Enoch's book makes a lengthy and unambiguous reference to Angels mating with earthly women is (I maintain) the reason for its rejection as Sacred Canon by the Church.

The second problem facing us in the question of whether Enoch is Scripture, is the baffling oversight regarding Christ's words to the Sadducees. Why didn't anyone notice the connection? No one seems to have fully realized what Christ was implying in His statement - that is, that He referred to Enoch's book as "Scripture". Granted, not too many saints and theologians were in possession of Enoch's book in the early centuries. But some WERE in possession of it, and DID read it. Even so, no one seems to have made the connection. How is that possible? Let's look at another baffling oversight made by the Saints and Fathers of the Church - one that's even more puzzling. Maybe this will help us understand how it's possible no one made the connection: Since Apostolic times, it has been ALL but universally maintained by every Saint, Doctor, and theologian who ever commented on this subject, that Enoch never died. This is the basis for the belief (again, since Apostolic times) that Enoch would be one of the Two Witnesses. As I'm sure you know, the belief that Enoch and Elijah are the Two Witnesses is, by far, the most prevalent view among scholars - even of today. In fact, this view was so universally accepted up until the days of St. Robert Bellarmine (17th century) that he declared it would be akin to heresy to deny it. And every single one of the Doctors, theologians and saints who held this view held it BECAUSE of their belief that Enoch never died. This is the entire basis of their argument. "Neither Enoch nor Elijah have died yet - and since everyone is under the curse of death, this means they're going to come back as the Witnesses, preach, and be killed by the Antichrist". That's the scenario. And again, it's all based upon the belief that neither prophet has died yet. And they use the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Hebrews to defend this view:
"By faith Henoch was translated, that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God." (Heb. 11:5)

Again, this is the verse used to defend the "Enoch never died" position. So where is the puzzling oversight? Only seven verses later, St. Paul says that Enoch is among the dead:
"All these died according to faith, not having received the promises, but beholding them afar off, and saluting them, and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth." (Heb. 11:13)

Oops. That's right. Enoch is among the dead. St. Paul says it himself. And just seven verses later! So how on earth is it possible no one saw this? Perhaps the answer is to be found in God's will. That's my guess. For some as-yet-unknown reason, God didn't want the Church to realize that Enoch was dead - or that his book was Scripture. Who really knows? I will say this, though - Enoch says in the very beginning of his book that it was written for those who would live during the time of the "Tribulation". That's (quite possibly) you and I. And this is also why the book has only gained such recognition in the last few decades.  


As to the book's being "shelved", this is self-evident. A few books were outright condemned at Nicea, but these were overtly heretical (like those of Arius). Any books that were up for consideration, as far as inclusion into the Sacred Canon, were either included, or shelved. This is not to say the Church intended to reopen their cases at a later date. Not at all. I use the term "shelved" in the sense of putting them aside, period. And if I could throw in my two cents, I would have to say that the reason for the book's rejection is more than likely its references to Angels mating with humans. This, in my opinion, is the reason. At the same time, I maintain the council's decision was in perfect conformity with God's will.

I'll have to get to the other half of your question tomorrow. I've run out of time today. Sorry...

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Re: Christ refers to the Book of Enoch as "Scripture"

Post by Flat on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:14 am

As to your second question, you say that Christ's statement, "like the angels in Heaven" refers to how they are not married, but chaste. Here is the verse in question:
"For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven."

As you can see, Christ is referring here to the unmarried state of the Angels. There's no reference to chastity at all. Chasity would simply be a consequence of their not being married. The subject really has no part in the discussion at all. It's obvious by His very words that Christ is referring to the unmarried state of the Angels. That's the whole point. Again, the Sadducees' question was about the married state of those who die. That's what the whole question, and subsequently Christ's answer, are about. Nothing more, and nothing less. The question regards the married state of those who die. Period. And so your position that "like the Angels in Heaven" refers to the Angels' chastity, and not simply to their unmarried state, clearly violates the train of thought. As proof, let's hear the Sadducees' question again, only this time, with your answer instead of Christs:
Sadducees: "Who's wife will she be?"
Flat Earth Fanatic: "The Angels in Heaven are chaste."

See how your position doesn't follow the train of thought? Now let's here Christ's answer:
Sadducees: "Who's wife will she be?"
Christ: "In the resurrection, they will neither marry, nor be married..."

You see, the whole question and answer revolves around the married or unmarried state of the dead. That's what this is all about. The chastity of the Angels is nothing but a silent consequence of their unmarried state. That's all. The subject of chastity has no part in the question at all. It's nothing but a side issue.

As to your second statement: "The Enoch citation is very clear, I admit that. But with the common sense assumption that angels were not married, any reference to angels in heaven could be used to support it." Once again, the very words used by Christ in His answer prove that He is referring specifically to the unmarried state of the Angels:
"For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven."

So the answer is "No, ANY reference to Angels in Scripture could not be used to support it." Again, He's not talking about chastity. He's talking about marriage. This is precisely why I maintain that Enoch's book is the "Scripture" Christ refers to. Nowhere else in all of Holy Writ is this question addressed. Nowhere...
Only in Enoch.

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